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"And Talmud Torah against everyone" - a new book reveals the nature of the ultra-orthodox education system

"Science is a type of 'speculation' that is questionable in the face of the absoluteness of the Torah and its truth," writes Dr. Udi Spiegel in his book "And Talmud Torah Against Everyone", in which he investigated the ultra-orthodox education system in Jerusalem

"These are things that a person eats the fruits of in this world, and the fund exists for him in the world to come. And these are: honoring father and mother, and giving kindnesses, making the beit midrash morning and evening, and welcoming guests, visiting the sick, bringing in a bride, accompanying the dead, studying and praying, and bringing peace between a man and his friend, and learning Torah against everyone." From the blessings of the dawn in the morning prayer.

From the book: "And Talmud Torah Against Everyone", Udi Spiegel, 2012.
From the book: "And Talmud Torah Against Everyone", Udi Spiegel, 2012.

Recently, Dr. Udi Spiegel's book was published, "And study Torah against everyone", which reviews the ultra-Orthodox education system for boys in depth. I highly recommend reading the entire book, at the link above. Spiegel relies on visits to more than 25 ultra-Orthodox educational institutions in Jerusalem, interviews with dozens of ultra-Orthodox educators from various streams, gathering material from newspapers and the ultra-Orthodox public as a whole, and previous studies conducted on the subject. In this entry I will provide a summary of the book and its important points, for the benefit of blog readers. The record is not intended to come out against the ultra-Orthodox or in their favor (although I am sure that my feelings about some of the issues will immediately stand out). It is only aimed at detailing the state of the education system of this extraordinary sector in Israel.

This is a growing sector. In 2008, the number of students in the ultra-orthodox sector reached 24% of students in compulsory Jewish kindergartens, 27% of students in elementary education, and 20% of students in upper division [1]. These are not exact rates, and they tend to vary from study to study due to the difficulty in defining 'who is ultra-Orthodox'. Even so, one fact is clear: there are more and more of them in the education system as time goes by, and most seculars know almost nothing and a half - except for a pile of positive myths, negative prejudices and half-truths - about the ultra-orthodox education system. In the words of Dr. Udi Spiegel - "Sometimes it seems that we know better the state of ultra-orthodox education in Eastern Europe a hundred and two hundred years ago, than the state of it today in Israel."

This is a situation that must change, because in a democracy it is important for a citizen to have all the data he needs to make informed and wise decisions. Accordingly, we must understand the ultra-Orthodox education system. It is clear to us that the education system is a critical factor in shaping the child's worldview. In the democratic and multicultural country, the minorities do have the right to maintain their separate identity, but to the same extent it must be ascertained whether the state is obliged - or even authorized - to finance an education system that does not provide children with basic tools for a normal life in the democratic country, such as the ability to work in the modern world and respect the plural civility in it. The question arises, therefore, what are the values ​​that the ultra-orthodox education system is trying to promote, and are they consistent with the good of the child and the good of the state.

The history of ultra-orthodox education in Israel

Haredim in the Four Species market in Tel Aviv, 2010. Photo: Arkady Mazor /
חRadim in the Four Species Market in Tel Aviv, 2010. Photo: Arkady Mazor /

In order to get to know the ultra-orthodox education system better, it is advisable to start from the beginning - with the establishment of the State of Israel. Paradoxically, it was precisely the establishment of the state that caused a sharp break in ultra-orthodox education. Many young men were impressed by the success of Zionism and went out to 'graze in foreign fields' with alcohol, girls and all the rest. The ultra-Orthodox educators shrugged their shoulders with a sigh and continued to teach the children Torah, mitzvot and also professions, since it was clear that the children would have to work for a living as soon as they finished school. And what about the studies in yeshiva and kollels, which we know so well today under the auspices of the state? Only the most talented children, who received scholarships and donations from benefactors, won these.

Sounds good? Well, within a year that situation was undermined, and the State of Israel made a decision to preserve the independence of the ultra-orthodox education system. That is, ultra-Orthodox continued to receive an ultra-Orthodox education. In 1950, another decision was made to exempt twenty educational institutions - ultra-Orthodox, of course - from the compulsory education law. Some will say that this was the state's first sin: by abdicating responsibility for the fate of children in ultra-Orthodox education, it led to today's situation. And on the other hand, who could have guessed that parents and educators would strive with all their might to instill in their children the ability to work in the world around them? Be that as it may, the exemption expanded over the years to encompass other ultra-Orthodox institutions, which also began to receive government funding in the XNUMXs.

The third achievement of the ultra-Orthodox was the exemption from conscription. Although it was only given to a relatively small number of high yeshiva students, they were the ideal for all the rest - the supermen in the group. From then on it was clear: whoever does not enlist, must be raised.

The ultra-Orthodox education system continued to grow, especially thanks to the children of the immigrants from the XNUMXs - a growth that reached the point of a more than fourfold jump in the first decade of the establishment of the state. The ultra-Orthodox educators began to instill their separatist and abstinent worldview into a large number of children whose parents enrolled them in this educational stream - with or without knowing exactly what it included.

In the XNUMXs, Shas entered politics, and obtained budgets. Oh, some budgets. The ultra-Orthodox educational institutions flourished and flourished, along with the welfare, education and religious budgets allocated to the ultra-Orthodox population. In this way, which continued until today, "the ultra-Orthodox education system became the largest set of educational institutions in Jerusalem", and today more than half of the Jewish students in Jerusalem study in ultra-orthodox education, and most of them in strict and separatist institutions. So according to Spiegel.

The current ultra-orthodox education system

Today, the ultra-Orthodox education system is diverse and endowed with many different institutions, but it seems that the strict ones win over all the rest. The main feature common to all institutions is complete separation between boys and girls from an early age. This is not a surprising phenomenon. In a society that relies on clear roles for men and women, it is important that there be separation already at the earliest stages, and thus the children receive a serious education in the Torah and Talmud, while the girls go through the 'shortened' route. The separation is also maintained in terms of the teachers: women teach women, and men - men.

The system itself is based on hundreds of independent educational institutions with a small number of students (between one hundred and two hundred students per institution, according to Spiegel). Some operate in proper buildings, but others are in trailers and residences. In any case, the school day starts in the morning and ends only in the afternoon or evening. holidays? almost none. When learning is a way of life, there is no room for vacations. Secularists have something to learn from this.

If we had to summarize the ultra-Orthodox education system in one sentence, then Spiegel succeeded well: "The education of boys is first and foremost a duty and a religious commandment... it is the main tool for preserving the heritage and tradition of every ultra-Orthodox community." The ultra-Orthodox education system brings the child into ultra-Orthodox society, and through it his status and the status of his family is determined. Each child on his own is responsible for the preservation of ultra-Orthodox society and the social status of his family. The family of a child who drops out of school suffers a fatal blow in terms of its social status in the community, which can have a severe effect on the matching of brothers and sisters. Yes, gossip and the class game are also prevalent in ultra-Orthodox society.

Even so, we seculars have something to learn from the ultra-Orthodox here as well. When I lecture in front of classes in schools, I try to instill in the children a sense of mission: the responsibility they have as human beings, to all other human beings; The great right that fell to them to promote human well-being, fight diseases and win. And when I see their eyes light up, I know I succeeded - they will continue to learn and strive on their own, and not because I push them from behind all the time. They got a goal. essence. This is something that ultra-orthodox schools manage to instill well in their students, and the secular ones still need to improve on it.

Orthodox education in numbers

According to the municipality's data, as presented in Spiegel's book, in 2008 more than 86,000 male and female students were in the ultra-orthodox education system. This is an increase of more than thirty percent compared to the number of students in the same system in 1998. The state education system did not receive a similar refinement in the same period of time, as can be seen in the graph (appears in Spiegel's book, which took the graph from Troyan, 2007). Every year in the last decade, the number of students in state education has decreased by 3% on average, and in state-religious education by 1.77% on average. The ultra-orthodox education system, on the other hand, grows on average every year by 3.19%!

Why is the education system growing so fast? An example of the answer comes from the story of two different people, each of them great in their own way, who died last year, when both were 102 years old. One is Ben Zion Netanyahu, Benjamin Netanyahu's father, who left behind ten descendants in total. The second is Rabbi Shalom Eliashiv, who left behind 1,400 descendants. This output indicates the rapid growth rate of the ultra-Orthodox population, and accordingly also leads to the growth of the ultra-Orthodox education system. Another explanation is that unrecognized institutions became recognized according to the law, and thus new students were added to the database of the Ministry of Education.

The education process

The education process starts from infancy. The mothers - who are often the only ones working at a real job - leave the house in the morning, and return in the afternoon. During this time, the babies receive care from nannies (hired or volunteered like the grandmother/aunt) or in nurseries. Since women in their forties are often involved in raising children and grandchildren at the same time, and since the older girls are expected to take care of their younger brothers themselves, there is no shortage of nannies in ultra-Orthodox society. Due to the shortness of time, the size of the family and the workload, many ultra-Orthodox mothers educate their children from an early age to self-discipline and avoid overindulgence.

At the age of 3-4, the child enters the kindergarten, and the graduation time in the kindergarten is coordinated with the hours at the kollel where the father studies, so that he can pick up his children. At the age of 5-6, the children enter school, and the school day begins to lengthen until six o'clock in the evening. Starting from high school, the child stays at school for most of the day and even on some Saturdays, and sometimes moves to a boarding school as part of his studies.

The intensity of ultra-orthodox education is clear from all of these. Such a system, in which the child is shaped without being given almost any free time for himself, has a critical effect on his mind and faith. The question arises, therefore: what is even taught there, in ultra-orthodox education?

Contents and agenda

The ultra-orthodox educational institutions are divided along a wide spectrum in their conservatism. In the more conservative pole, you can find the institutions of the ultra-Orthodox community, mainly, who dislike the state and do not identify with it - and accordingly do not receive budgets from the state... or external supervision. According to estimates, 15-20 thousand students study in this system. In fact, in most of them the official language is Yiddish.

In the more modern pole are Chabad institutions, Torah institutions, the Shas Torah education system and more. They are mainly intended to bring the traditional children closer to the fold of religion in general and to assimilate them into ultra-Orthodox society in particular. This is the general division, but perhaps we should start earlier: in the house itself.

Education begins at home, in nurseries and dormitories, where the basics of mitzvot are imparted to children. At the age of three, a toddler's hair is cut for the first time, and he usually enters the kindergarten for boys, sometimes also known as a 'room'. Since the Ministry of Education hardly imposes any requirements on the kindergartens in terms of the study content, most kindergartens belong to the recognized education and receive a budget. This is a fact that can be seen as problematic, because already in the kindergartens the children receive an education that shapes their character, and in many kindergartens there is also a 'raba' - a male teacher, which reflects the degree of ultra-Orthodoxness of the kindergarten.

From kindergarten to eighth grade, the children go to Talmud Torah - the heart of the ultra-Orthodox education system. They will study there in classes with 15-30 students - yes, yes, you read that right, not 40 students as is the case in the state schools - with an educator known as a 'melamed' who will teach a large part of the sacred subjects. In the mornings and afternoons, when the students are at their peak concentration, they will have the sacred studies. In the afternoon or at the end of the day, when they are sleepy and tired, they will receive an hour or two of weekday studies such as Hebrew and arithmetic. As they always say, God is in the little details. And it is quite clear that the ultra-orthodox know how to play well with their own.

Around the age of the bar mitzvah, the students move to the small yeshiva, which are the high school of the ultra-Orthodox, where the boys get to focus completely on the sacred studies, and especially on the Gemara. Sand studies? Nothing to talk about at all. Here too, each class has 15-30 students. The school day begins at seven in the morning with a joint morning prayer and breakfast. You study Gemara in depth with a teacher, after which you conduct independent study and delve deeper into the material in study groups. This is a self-study method whose success has also been demonstrated in studies with a computer - when you put groups of children in front of a computer with internet and ask them to find an answer to a question, they achieve surprising successes... even if they don't know English at all! Is it any wonder, then, that a search in the Gemara yields similar results? Here too, it is appropriate for secular education to borrow certain motifs from the ultra-Orthodox.

The lunch hours are dedicated to a break - prayer, meal and free time. After that, several more classes are held, ending with evening prayer and dinner. At around eight in the evening, the students prepare the study material for tomorrow, and only then leave for their homes or vacate their rooms at the boarding school.

This schedule lasts almost the whole week, with Fridays and sometimes Thursdays being dedicated to exams and memorizing the material. Classes sometimes continue on Saturdays as well, but in a less regulated manner.

The schedule can be seen in one of the elite Lithuanian yeshiva, as it is presented in Spiegel's book -

Agenda of a student in a high school yeshiva. From the book: "And Talmud Torah Against Everyone", Udi Spiegel, 2012.
Agenda of a student in a high school yeshiva. From the book: "And Talmud Torah Against Everyone", Udi Spiegel, 2012.

As for the content, the boys start learning to read more in kindergarten. By the third grade, they will deepen their writing and reading skills, with some calculus along the way, but all with an emphasis on sacred studies. From the third grade onwards, the children begin to study the Gemara, and this means that they must acquire another language - Aramaic - which has long since passed away from the world and appears only in the ancient religious books. The studies are increasing in difficulty and intensity, but the sand studies remain at a basic level and usually appear at the end of the school day.

Sand studies

The field studies are, quite simply, all the subjects that do not involve the study of the Torah in writing (the Bible) or orally (the Talmud and all its derivatives). These include calculus and Hebrew, and in the best cases also history, geography and nature in low doses. The English language is almost never taught in the Torah Talmuds in Jerusalem. Even in the subjects studied, the level is not high, and the students only receive material that cannot threaten their faith. Spiegel even describes that "I learned from administrators that science is a type of 'speculation' that is questionable, compared to the absoluteness of the Torah and its truth." According to this line of thought, the studies of the sand disappear from the curriculum in the XNUMXth or XNUMXth grade, and the studies of the holy take their place.

Each institution decides on the number of 'week hours' in its curriculum, according to the budget provided by the government and subject to a core program. Some of the institutions ('the recognized non-formal education') maintain 75% - 100% of the core program. The exempt institutions only hold 50% of the core studies. However, Spiegel points out that there are no major differences in the field between the levels of sand studies in these two types of institutions. The children are not worried that they do not get many hours of weekday studies. Only 15 years later, when some of them return to school to try to get a high school diploma and get accepted to college, do they realize the damage they have done.

The competitive model

It is important to understand that not all small yeshiva are similar to each other, and there are also weaker Ashkenazi and Sephardic institutions, which are sometimes called 'Torah education' with disdain and a grimace. The weak, violent, or repentant students come to these institutions. In these yeshivas, they learn less sacred studies and concentrate more on one simple task: to keep the students in ultra-Orthodox society.

The institutions compete with each other to obtain donations from private and institutional sources. In this respect, the institutions obey the principles of the open market that encourage excellence, and compete, among other things, to obtain the most highly regarded educators. The parents and the ultra-Orthodox public keep a constant eye on the institutions, and an institution that acquires a bad name for itself will quickly lose its gifted students on the budgets they bring from their rich parents. And the weak students? They will go anywhere that will accept them.

This model means that the institutions allow themselves to demand a multitude of requirements that are not necessarily related to the academic material. The reputation of the father (working?) and mother (working? traveling by car, God forbid?), religious concessions at home, possession of a cell phone that is not kosher, brothers or sisters who came back with a question and more - all of these can disqualify the student from being admitted to a reputable educational institution. On the other hand, a child who is the scion of a respectable family of rabbis, may receive a discount on the tuition fee and automatic admission without reservations.

The teachers and their status

There is a huge appreciation for the teaching profession in ultra-Orthodox society, both because the teacher fulfills one of the most important mitzvot - to instill Torah and mitzvot in a child - and also because it is a job that has a material wage alongside it. And as Spiegel writes, "For many yeshiva graduates, this is one of the only jobs they are qualified to do."

From all of this it is clear that the status of teachers in ultra-Orthodox society is much higher than their status in secular society. Respect for the teacher is well rooted, and the students usually get up from their chairs when he enters the classroom. It is also clear why the ultra-orthodox education system includes thousands of dedicated teachers who dedicate themselves to the job. Unfortunately, a large part of them have never studied education or teaching in a formal way. In accordance with the lack of formality, the teachers are employed without the possibility of tenure and without clear rights. Contractor teachers, actually. How terrible is this? It is not clear, especially since the incessant competition between schools means that good teachers will be offered relatively high salaries and better conditions. How high is the salary? According to evidence, a good teacher can earn between ten thousand NIS and 15,000 NIS net, with a large part of the money coming under the nose of the Income Tax and National Insurance. In black, in short.

The lack of supervision and formality hurt more than anything in ordinary studies - arithmetic, geography and the like. There are few cases in which the sand teachers are endowed with real and serious knowledge in the field. Usually the information they provide to the students comes, alas for the ears that hear this, from their dim memories of the time when they grew up as students in secular or religious-national schools (because sometimes these are teachers who have repented, or have extremes in their religious positions). In the better cases, they get the knowledge from books. Accordingly, there are usually no serious tests in the sand studies, and there is no strictness about the grades and their registration, especially in the educational institutions for boys.

self discipline

Those who get to the higher institutions may be shocked by the great noise that surrounds the classrooms, and see this as a phenomenon of disrespect for the teacher. It's not far from that. In fact, the students learn in 'friendship' in many lessons, that is, in pairs. The couple reads the material together and debates about it out loud and with great intent. In this way, they reach a deeper understanding of the acquired knowledge, develop their logic and reasoning skills, and to a certain extent - make it easier for the teacher who is not obliged to speak himself at this time.

The wild-almost atmosphere of camaraderie does not continue past the intended lesson. The teachers are also responsible for discipline, and in the most extreme cases they even have permission to follow the students outside of school hours. The definition of the discipline itself varies from session to session. In the more serious institutions, a student who goes out to play football in his free time may find himself removed from the Yeshiva. These are, of course, the most extreme cases. The punishment for minor offenses can amount to a note to the parents, or sending the child home. It can also amount to psychological punishment - and Spiegel tells of a graduate of one of the Torah Talmudic who ordered unruly students to walk on all fours in front of all the other students. It is claimed that these phenomena are decreasing in the last decade. The actual physical punishment - the one who teaches with the big ruler - is also decreasing.

To her and a thorn in her

Until now, we have heard many good things about ultra-orthodox education. The students are imbued with a sense of mission to study the Torah and raise the status of their family. They get to study from morning to night, almost non-stop or free. Wouldn't we want our education system to learn from them?

Well, maybe not.

First, the ultra-orthodox education system, for its pursuit of excellence, causes many to break down, stay behind and eventually drop out of educational institutions. In 2008 it became known that about half of the students who drop out in the Jewish sector studied in ultra-orthodox education, and most of them were boys during middle school and high school. It is not clear to what extent it is possible to rely on the level of accuracy of these data due to the difficulty of obtaining details from the ultra-Orthodox sector, but it is clear to everyone - including the ultra-Orthodox - that there is a high dropout rate in ultra-orthodox education.

What happens to children who drop out? Some wander the streets and turn to a life of crime. These are the infamous 'shabbnikim'. Others distance themselves from religion or even - RL - start working.

According to Spiegel, there is a particularly difficult phenomenon of 'hidden dropout'. Many students remain enrolled in educational institutions without learning anything, or even attending classes. According to him, "there are quite a few cases of students who cannot read and write even at advanced ages". Why don't we usually hear about this from the ultra-orthodox? Because the ultra-orthodox society ignores these phenomena in order to preserve its ideal 'success story', and not to give the dropout phenomenon a chance. Accordingly, many yeshivas do not delete from their records children who have dropped out - both to preserve the budget from the authorities, but also with the aim of providing a child who has dropped out a place to return to.

It is difficult to put one's finger on one point that causes the high dropout rates in the ultra-Orthodox education system for boys. This is due to a large number of factors: the lack of supervision on the part of the authorities, heavy pressure in studies, a fragmented education system in which each institution exists on its own, and a lack of professionalism on the part of the teachers in dealing with the students' difficulties.

Added to all of these is the question of what is happening with the sand studies at all. These are the studies that prepare the children for productive work and self-fulfillment later in their lives. She is the one who allows them to assimilate and integrate into Israeli society without relying on collecting handouts from the rest of the public. The Ministry of Education claims that the level of study in the sand subjects is reasonable in many educational institutions, but finds it difficult to provide data. When Spiegel examined the specific data on the results of the 2008 Mitzvah exams in four white Sephardic ultra-Orthodox schools in Jerusalem, it turned out that their scores were consistently lower than those of the students in other Hebrew-speaking schools. In written expression, for example, the average was lower than 50, while the national average in Hebrew-speaking schools was 68. In mathematics, the ultra-orthodox average was 45, compared to the national-Jewish average of 64. In short, this means that those schools failed in every Sand occupation is possible. And nobody cared.

In addition to all of this, it should be remembered that ultra-orthodox education produces a large number of graduates with superior abilities and learning skills. Those who manage to get through the small meetings according to their strict agenda, are usually also endowed with high self-discipline. Even so, we wouldn't call most of them 'brilliant'. It is no longer possible to find real 'greats of a generation' nowadays. Perhaps the reason for this is, according to Spiegel, the suspicion that the brightest students reach conclusions that threaten the educators, and therefore are not accepted to the best yeshiva. Their excellence and creativity are dulled in inferior yeshivas, and "this is how we may have prevented the system from raising students with original thinking and magnanimity in recent decades, even though the number of students is increasing."

This point is valid for the entire ultra-orthodox education system. The graduates, almost all of them, are smart, intelligent and curious, but do not push the boundaries. They are not endowed with the skills that allow them to leave the ultra-Orthodox community, or to question what they have learned. And so the ultra-orthodox society continues to grow and even prosper, at the expense of the freedom of choice of its children. And if things continue in the current format, in which the ultra-Orthodox do not learn citizenship or the basics of democracy, then in the end it will grow at the expense of our children's freedom of choice.

76 תגובות

  1. Omitting a small but important detail: "In doing so, we are not referring to a comparison with institutions in which the socio-economic cross-section is similar"
    I thought you were a scientist, it turned out to be a populist...

  2. And there is still not a single piece of evidence for the Torah period. It's really embarrassing to see people who hide behind pseudoscience, who claim to know the Torah and the Bible but do not understand that King David was not in the Torah. Here, for the benefit of those ignorant people, I took the trouble and brought the summary of King David from Wikipedia. It should be noted that it appears for the first time in the book of Samuel. Samuel is a book from the collection called "Prophets". This collection is the second collection that comes immediately after the Torah and provides the "N" in the Bible. The "T" is of the Torah, of which, as mentioned, there is not a single archaeological evidence.דוד

    And by the way, from the entry there is no evidence for David, and how strange (and a pity) this is, since we have direct evidence of countless kings and emperors who ruled the world, before his supposed period, during his supposed period and after his supposed period. Actually, David doesn't have one. Too bad. From the value it appears that the archaeologists are divided as to the finds that do exist. But the main thing is that there are those who think that David is found in the Torah. Did we say embarrassing?

    We will continue, to all those quoting from the Gemara regarding the accuracy in the numbering of the stars in the universe, the great embarrassment:
    1. From the quote given here, are there 12 zodiac signs? (indeed scientific) there are 108 galaxies?? And each of them has 1101 stars??? And people are proud of it as evidence of something????
    2. Someone here does not understand the huge difference between 18^10 and 22^10 and here, again, evidence of the problematic nature of our education system. Indeed, her situation and our situation is bleak.
    3 Does the quotation given here refer to the planets or the stars in their current meaning, i.e. to the suns? Since the quote is so open to interpretation, anything goes. how fun. Indeed, this is how a wall is built.
    4. Is the Gemara aware that the Hidan website has an article about multiple worlds and if the theories are correct, the number of stars is literally infinite (a large infinity, if I'm not mistaken)

    And here is the real problem: I have never heard of the Jews as great astronomers. I've heard of the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Mayans, but I've never heard of us as having significant astronomical discoveries. But, since I'm not a historian of science, maybe I'm wrong, so let's assume I'm wrong. Hence, the Sage or whoever it was, hypothesized the number of stars (and let's assume it's suns even though there is no evidence of this) with a much greater accuracy than the Greeks/Romans/Christians and Co. who were great astronomers. Those Greeks relied on evidence that was well known (tiring and long observation for generations of stars) therefore the question arises, what did the Sages rely on? It is unlikely that they were referring to any physical evidence or theories because there was no evidence or any theories at that time to support the infinite-error-accuracy description presented here. It must be remembered that the Gemara is the Torah in the Hebrew Bible (which became the written Torah) and that the Sages were not scientists but interpreters of the Bible and therefore, the Sages relied on the Torah in the Hebrew Bible. The Torah in the Bible is an inseparable part of the Torah and is also the living words of God. Hence, that the words of God are alive is a mistake. A complete and utter mistake. Nonsense, no less than that, and that is why it is so embarrassing to see mature people proud of a complete mistake of the Gemara, in the physical description of the world.

  3. To Shmolik, (the former good responder...)

    There are the discoveries of Avraham Biram in 1994
    An amazing inscription from the 9th century BC was discovered, referring to the house of David, and the king of Israel. This is the first time that David's name appears in any ancient inscription outside the Bible. The very fact that the inscription refers not just to David, but to the House of David, the lineage of the greatest king of Israel, is even more miraculous... It is possible that this is the earliest reference (outside the Bible) for more details, read about the archaeological discoveries of Avraham Biram

    There is the recent discovery by Prof. Yossi Garfinkel and Saar Ganor from the Antiquities Authority,
    Exciting evidence has been revealed in the Elah Valley area about the ancient worship of the people of Israel
    During the time of King David. The findings also shed new light on the construction activities of King Solomon's palace and temple in Jerusalem, notes Prof. Garfinkel:
    "'The coffins found, one made of clay and the other of stone, are identical to an object called in the Bible during the time of King David the 'Ark of God,'" Prof. Garfinkel points out and adds: "These are installations in which they kept the symbol of God, similar to the holy coffins used in synagogues to keep Torah scrolls."

    Apart from that, no blue identity card of King David has been found yet

    An identity card of King David has not yet been found

  4. My acquaintance with Judaism is because I grew up traditionally and even studied in the state-religious education system until the sixth grade, and even received a 100 in religion.
    If you want to know exactly what the Talmud peppers are worth, check out the "Deat Emet" website.

  5. My father is sad, I did not expect such arguments from you. I thought you were a person who deals with science, and therefore you try to be open-minded and creative, and not to repeat unclear sentences like "studying the Talmud contributes to only one thing - to the economic prosperity of the yeshivas that receive money from the state per student", I'm sure this was an inaccurate outburst from your point of view.
    To me, this shows that your acquaintance with Judaism is at best through newspaper articles, and at worst through academic courses. I wish I was wrong.
    Most of the moral and cultural ideas ruling today in the developed world originate in Judaism - which is the Talmud or in Christianity (which originates in Judaism of course)
    I'm sad because you seem to be a serious person who cares about the country, like all of us, and it's a shame you don't know enough.

    I will give an example of a basic and minimal understanding of Jewish concepts.
    It is clear to any beginning yeshiva student that the meaning of the sentence "Everything is found in the Torah" does not mean that there are formulas in quantum physics there. As you said because there is simply no name.

    The intention is that the nation of Israel expresses both through its life in history and through the Torah something which is the root of the entire universe and all life, which is the one that continues to develop all the time until the 21st century and will continue to develop in the centuries to come.

    (This is an argument that sounds delusional, and this is not the place to explain what it is based on and how they arrived at it, I don't understand it in its entirety either, but this is the direction. It is true that it is not an argument that can be proven mathematically, but Freud's Oedipus complex cannot be proven mathematically either, and no doesn't mean he doesn't exist and kicking)

    This is one of the meanings of the phrase "everything is found in the Torah" that anyone who is somewhat used to Jewish and Talmudic terminology understands.
    But unfortunately there are many who do not have a basic orientation in Jewish terminology, and lack the ability to abstract. And by the way, this is a direct product of the secular education system that you are so proud of.

    There is nothing to do, the Talmud expresses Judaism to a great extent. By the way, this Talmudic culture "that contributes nothing" is the one that did invent most of the inventions of the 21st century by 13 percent of the Nobel Prize recipients who are Jews, who came after almost 2000 years of "Talmudic" culture and customs.

    Success for all of us!

  6. Eran, thank you for agreeing with me, I wrote that no findings from the Torah period were found.
    By the way, I didn't go through the entire link you sent, but has there been a finding regarding David himself, something that suggests his existence and are these findings agreed upon by the mainstream of archaeology?

  7. Yes, but in the absence of school studies at a reasonable level - especially math and English, the chances of another Hershkovitz coming out like this are low, which means we lose thousands of Hershkovits every year.

  8. ^
    I actually think differently. During my studies at the Technion I met quite a few religious people and many of them were outstanding. I believe that the percentage of excellent students among the religious students is much higher than the percentage of excellent students among the secular students. I didn't do any research on the matter, but it seems that the Torah studies and the self-discipline they acquired contributed quite a bit to their academic abilities.

    And as usual I will come back and say - there is no problem in being both a scientist and a religious person. As evidence, there are a number of professors in all the universities in the country, who wear kippahs and maintain a religious lifestyle. The Minister of Science in the current government, Prof. Daniel Hershkowitz, former Dean of the Faculty of Mathematics at the Technion, is also a rabbi.

  9. This is not a fact, this is ultra-orthodox propaganda. There is nothing positive about studying the Talmud, certainly not when it comes at the expense of English and math. If everything is written in the Talmud, how is it that the Jews did not invent all the inventions of the 21st century in the 12th century? Is everything already there? Or just unimportant details like numerological nonsense about the number of stars.
    Studying the Talmud only contributes to the latter - to the economic prosperity of the yeshivas that receive money from the state per student. This should be stopped. We are already taking giant steps closer to an Iranian-style Halacha state. Since you stole our children with your 'repentance' enterprises, we have no other human pool for the continuation of scientific creation in the State of Israel but your children, so do yourself a favor and stop protecting them from a better economic world because you have destroyed both them and the future of the entire State of Israel.

  10. Avi Shalom,

    Let's put things in order, I wrote in parentheses:
    Even if he is consumed by this wisdom for his livelihood then it must be taught, so that of course there will be no burden on society.
    Apart from that, I did not react negatively to science, but only claimed that the wisdom of the nations (not the knowledge!) is contained in the Talmud,
    All the more, it will be easier to realize the Talmudic wisdom in the wisdom of science and not the other way around, in my experience
    In the faculties of exact sciences, I met more than once excellent Yeshiva students who continued the tradition of excellence there as well
    And they all claimed that intellectually it was easier for them in the faculty than in the yeshiva.
    You can agree with that and you can disagree, but it is a fact.

  11. You supported the ultra-Orthodox's decision not to teach the wisdom of the nations, and this is a curse of science because this thing creates a huge group of voluntarily ignorant people, not just ignorant because they don't have the opportunity. And this ignorance translates into the fact that they are unable to contribute to the economic life of the country and on the contrary become a burden on it.

  12. to my father,
    The difference is between 22^10 which is the most accurate approximation to the number of stars today compared to 18^10 according to the Gemara
    The difference is not at all significant in relation to the total number of stars in the universe,
    Compared to the estimate of ancient peoples that it was a few thousands, this is certainly an amazing discovery in relation to the period in question.
    However, I don't remember cursing science, you can cite examples of such curses

  13. Rabbi Nachman, the number you threw out of the stars doesn't even come close to a thousandth of a percent of the estimate of the stars and it is probably several orders of magnitude more. The main thing is that you curse science.

  14. to David,
    From the book: The Hasidic Genius from Vilna, p. Riz:

    "It is doubtful whether these words came from the mouth of the Gra, and one should not refrain from expressing concern that the words were not fully understood by the hearer... The educated of those days probably tried to attribute views as well as things that they did not say and did not occur to him." Also, the words were not recalled by anyone from The students who praised the Gra and his knowledge in all the wisdom"

    The greatest of the students of Maran Hagar of Vilna Maran Hagra of Volozhin was the one who founded the mother of all yeshivas of the past hundreds of years - the Volozhin yeshiva. How much time was devoted in the study series to school studies? - That's right, not even one minute. And rather, why was the Yeshiva closed that provided the people of Israel with hundreds of the greatest of the generation in all the years of its existence? Because the authorities wanted to introduce sand studies in it! In closing it, she instructed many that the Torah teacher does not tolerate partnership with any other teacher.

    In the Talmud Torah laws, there is no obligation to learn wisdom other than the wisdom of the Torah (unless it is consumed by a certain person for his livelihood).
    What is true is that the wisdom of the sciences is really included in the wisdom of the Torah, and this is probably the intention.
    Regarding the prediction of the number of stars, it is nevertheless amazing:
    Viewed from Earth, with a normal eye, thousands of individual stars can be identified. Indeed, the ancient peoples mistakenly believed that this was approximately the number of stars in the universe (some say 6000 stars) spread out like night lamps on the "ceiling" of the flat world, as you understood it then, in which we live.
    Whereas Sages already 1500 years ago said that the number of stars is 1,064,340,000,000,000,000
    which is a number very close to today's reality.

  15. to Rabbi As far as I know, most of the Jewish Nobel Prize winners were able to obtain the prize due to their diligence at the university and not at some yeshiva in Bnei Brak.
    If and when a yeshiva graduate from Bnei Brak (or even Jerusalem) wins the Nobel Prize in Physics, I will immediately enroll my children there...
    And on a more serious note: all the studies on the intensification of ultra-Orthodox society can resemble those that examine the depth of the mud, the width of the puddle, and the effect on the frogs, when all that needs to be done is to turn off the tap that feeds the puddle.

  16. To "Rabbi",
    See in Wikipedia the Gaon from Vilna entry, there is a quote from his student by his name:
    "Just as a person lacks knowledge from the rest of wisdom - in contrast, he will lack a hundred hands in the wisdom of the Torah."
    The source is indicated there.

    More from there:
    And this is how Rabbi Yisrael Shklov told the Gra:
    "Thus he said, all the wisdoms are necessary for our Torah... and are included in it, and everyone knew their purpose and mentioned them: the wisdom of algebra and triangles and engineering and the wisdom of music... and he explained the quality of all the wisdoms and said that they achieved their purpose, only the wisdom of medicine knew the wisdom of surgery and belonged to it, but the act of drugs and their craft he actually wanted to teach them from the doctors of the time And his righteous father ordered him not to learn it, so that he would not abandon his Torah when he had to go save souls when he knew the end. And also the wisdom of the witchcraft... and she knew, only he lacked the deed of the weed and all the end of her deeds, because they are in the hands of the unbelieving heathens, he could not learn the end of her deeds due to his indulgence."
    - Paat HaShulchan, preface, D. and a long explanation on the side.

    And in the book Kol Hator for his students, the importance of learning wisdom is explained at length.


    In the Gemara you quoted, a huge number of stars or celestial bodies are indicated.
    But this is still only very little information of what is happening in space.
    Here you mentioned the word galaxy. Galaxies can be seen with telescopes, without them even the closest and largest ones whose structures look like a tiny cloud. And you can't see that they are made of a huge number of stars. Nor their spectacular and different forms.
    And what about the moons of the planets, the distant planets like Uranus and Neptune. Black holes, red and blue giants, white and brown dwarfs, gas clouds, Saturn's rings, quasars, double stars, super novae. The orbits of the comets were not rivers to Shmuel, and today they are rivers, and much, much more mathematical and visual information that is not explained in detail in the Gemara, nor should it be detailed.

  17. To David,
    If you have really studied Trascha Berakot then you know the following paragraph:
    "I created twelve zodiac signs in the ground. And for every luck and fortune I created thirty troops for him. And for each army I created thirty legions. And for each legion and legion I created for him thirty rahtons.
    And for every rehton and rehton I created thirty cartons for him. And for each carton and carton I created thirty gastras for it and for each gastra and gastra I hung three hundred and sixty-five thousand twenty-four stars in it, against the sun's rays. And I did not create them all except for you.

    We will now collect the data and findings. We will reach a total of 108 galaxies. Each of them has 1011 stars. The total gives us a total of 1019 stars. This number is equal to 1019X0.94038. It is the number that comes to mind from the Talmud passage we quoted above, with a difference of only a few percent. This astronomical number is certainly worthy of appreciation, but the closeness between the two astronomical, Talmudic and astronomical numbers is simply amazing.
    And that's only on the tip of the fork, so I'm convinced that you haven't studied Tracha Berakot in depth.

    Regarding the genius from Vilna, I would appreciate it if you could send me a quote in which he claims that it is mandatory to study

    To Shmulik (former one who responds well...)
    You simply deny Jewish tradition serially, simply unbelievable for all the evidence you receive here and you still
    denying, until when?? They showed you archeological proofs of the existence of King David and you want him to come out of his grave and say hello, I'm King David, and then ask him for an identity card from the Ministry of the Interior instead of the state.

  18. To "Rabbi",
    You are completely wrong, I studied tractate of blessings, there is not that much astronomical information there.
    And precisely the opposite is true, the Gaon of Vilna said that it is obligatory to learn the wisdom of Ashurn, precisely in order to understand the wisdom of the Torah.

    to Shmulik,
    There are many things in the Bible for which archaeologists have also found evidence.
    See for example here:

  19. Eran,
    Much worse than that: the stories of the Torah have no trace of archaeological evidence and we are taught as if it were factual history

  20. A realistic and interesting proposal would be to stop Bible studies in the State of Israel, or alternatively to cut at least one and a half units.
    Because the historical reasons for the settlement of the land are studied in history and citizenship, and most Bible lessons deal with the legends of the Thousand and One Nights which are likely skewed in a way that makes them historically unrealistic.

  21. Right now I'm trying to make sense to the advertising agencies who don't understand that you can't put all your eggs in one basket even if it costs five minutes of work for an accountant.
    It is interesting that, as in everything, you save the little money. Instead of understanding the importance of a website of the type of science, everyone says a really nice thing, but that Poptitz will publish.

  22. So, father, in light of the previous response, are you going to change the purpose of the site to studies and articles on astrology or simply close the site?

  23. Oh Nachman, you have arrived in time!
    Please enlighten us regarding the identity of the genes that contribute to the appearance of autism, surely there is some Gemara page that refers to this, isn't there? This will save a great deal of research money and time and most importantly will help many children with this syndrome and parents who have to deal with the special difficulties that exist in raising these children. Of course, this will also greatly raise the profile of religion in the eyes of the secular, and for that alone I think it is worth investing some of your time.

    I searched a bit in the daily gossip (for example this:
    But there seemed to be a lot of ignorance and confusion (and some other embarrassing things). How do you explain the obvious gap between your claim regarding the knowledge that exists in the Gemara and this small example (there are many more like it)?

  24. Friends,
    There is no need to learn the study of sand, the Gemara has all the scientific fields
    For example, Tractate Berakhot also deals with astronomy, astrology and mathematical calculations,
    The Gemara is made up of everything, brings all the explanations and sides of every issue. She teaches how to examine any coin not only from both sides but also up and down and from every direction we didn't think of. It is proven from all generations that the infinite divine wisdom is found in the Gemara and its fascinating axioms. There are the most complex questions in the Gemara, if a person digs into them, he can reach very deep insights
    No wonder the Koreans study Gemara, if I quote the words of the South Korean ambassador Young Sam in the Tarbut Hayom program:

    "We were very curious about the high academic achievements of the Jews," explains the South Korean ambassador to Israel, Young Sam Ma, who was a guest on the "Today's Culture" program. "Jews have a high percentage of Nobel Prize winners in all fields: literature, science and economics. This is an amazing achievement. We tried to understand what is the secret of the Jewish people? How do they - more than other nations - manage to reach such impressive achievements? How is it that Jews are so genius? The conclusion we reached is that one of your secrets is studying the Talmud.
    "Jews study Talmud from a young age, and this helps them, in our opinion, to develop high abilities. This understanding led us to the conclusion that our children should also be taught Talmud. We believe that if we teach our children Talmud - we too can become geniuses. And this is what is behind the decision to integrate the Talmud into the education system in South Korea."
    Young says that he himself read the Talmud from a very young age: "It is considered a very significant study", he emphasizes. "The result is that there are more Koreans who keep a Talmud in their homes than Jews in Israel. I, for example, have two sets of Talmud: one was bought by my wife, and the other was a gift from my mother-in-law."

    Shabbat Shalom

  25. My dear father, first of all thank you very much for the wonderful website you built and continue to build with your own two hands. bless you
    Religion is politics. whose fundamental and primary purpose is to control people through the exploitation of ignorance in such and such psychological ways. I will not go into detail, but with a quick examination of human history, it is possible to understand human needs and the religious solution to those needs. A wise person understands in his understanding that in order to know the truth one must investigate reality, every person with his head understands this and from investigation behaviors and rules of the reality laid out before us are revealed and removed. There are two types of science and both are extremely accurate: 1. The science that investigates the object of perception or the 'object of perception' - and relies on facts. Which we usually call "science", and within it you will find all the branches of science known to us, from quantum theory, astronomy, psychology, etc... There is another type of science, no less accurate, which is also based solely on facts, it is also expressed in pure scientific investigation. He investigates not the 'object of perception' but the perception itself, that is, he deals with the investigation of the thing called perception which includes everything, both the perceiver and the perceived as well as the act of perception. If in the normal science known to us only the 'object of perception' is investigated and the method of investigation is the "experiment" on which the results and understandings are based, in the investigation of 'perception' the experience in its entirety (undivided) is investigated. (Not easy for rational understanding because the intellect itself perceives its object and therefore does not distinguish itself), because as soon as a division is created in a complete experience an 'object of perception' is created. Ignorant and stupid people failed to understand this 'science' and mix it with religion. In short, make a salad out of it. So when people talk about absolute truth in relation to the perceived object then of course no such concept is possible. But in relation to the whole perception in its entirety the truth is the absolute. But the intellect that investigates its object ignores itself within the complete system of perception. Hope this distinction enlightens your eyes regarding the distorted "religion" issue.

  26. to the 'cynical reader'
    There is no such thing as a 'secular society'. It is a heterogeneous society that consists of; Seculars, Russians, Arabs, kibbutzniks, residents of development towns, residents of Ra'anana and Hod Hasharon, countless students and lecturers at the academy,
    Different sectors are more or less backward.
    Oh.. and the residents of Mea Shearim and Beit Shemesh, and also the residents of Bnei Brak..
    The equal side between the more normal parts of the population is that they allowed and allow us all to live together (democracy)
    It is true that there are sectors of the population that do not believe in democracy
    The 'rivers of violence'? Oh my, I'm really afraid to leave the house, my friends at university just beat me up all day
    (Haven't you been brainwashed a bit by the ultra-orthodox press)?

  27. A secular student has something more important than anything you said - the ability to work and support oneself with dignity. Haredi don't have this and not for nothing. They want to control the flock from their pasture and therefore prefer that they remain ignorant of everything related to work.

  28. You prefaced well, our gentlemen have already said: hatred spoils the line. Try to compare the education that a secular student receives with that of an ultra-orthodox student. Try to compare the values ​​and measurements with which the student leaves. Try comparing the rivers of violence here versus there. So what, a secular student knows how to extract a root (say) and quote Tschernihovsky's poems (say)? come on.

  29. Father, are you serious?
    You should delete your last message and then this message as well.
    After all, it is clear that this is a shop for its own sake.

    And that Dror claimed that all the cleaning workers are Haredi?
    He claimed that the ultra-Orthodox are working.
    Indeed, from the accuracy of your words it appears that the cleaning worker was Sudanese, but the waiters, the manager and the cashier were ultra-Orthodox.
    And more, and that in Tel Aviv the cleaning worker is not Sudanese? So what is the difference between Bnei Brak and Tel Aviv?

  30. really? I myself went once, although it was at six in the evening to the Tzipori restaurant - Jabotinsky corner Rabbi Akiva, and guess who the cleaning worker was? That's right, Sudanese.

  31. in her
    to spike
    Please enter the Bnei Brak center
    And walk around there until midnight and see the many parking lots and if you look inside you will see that the sellers and workers are amazingly anxious!!!
    And if you go through the families you will find there truck drivers, bus drivers, plumbers, diamond merchants. Graphic artists, nurses and doctors, and more and more...
    True, it's hard to believe, but it's a fact that there are also many Haredim who work.
    And here and there the biggest surprise of all will also be found by scientists.

  32. In short, the ultra-orthodox have a closed world and are not ready to accept any change or their children will see a different world.

    According to the law, the ultra-Orthodox must also be required to teach their children subjects such as mathematics, physics, etc.
    To give them tools to deal with the world, those who want to live like an ultra-Orthodox from the old world (not to work and live like a leech) we are in a problem, but those who want to go out to work and at the end of the work day like any other person work to learn Torah
    I will respect him tenfold.

  33. As a former ultra-Orthodox (an elite Lithuanian yeshiva student) and current atheist, he says:
    Most of the information in the article is correct, with the exception of inaccuracies in a few places, which do not change the final line.
    The main point and especially the conclusion of the study regarding the lack of education to maximize earning capacity is absolutely correct.
    It's just that they miss an important point in translating the research to the field and changing the situation:
    A few months ago Kadima resigned from the government due to the controversy over the conscription law. Big mistake! When there was finally a historic opportunity to correct an old injustice - instead of enacting any law, even in a partial way and compromising its quality, but at least a process of recruitment and gradual integration begins - we foolishly broke the tools.
    Anyone with eyes in their head will understand that coercion is not the right way. Try to remember the last time you were forced to make any change in your life - naturally you resisted. Human nature is to want the familiar and the safe. So are the ultra-Orthodox.
    A strict and ungraded recruitment law, the beginning (not a mistake) to fail. If only the secular public had the sense to carry out a gradual, non-publicized, non-aggressive process - there would be a chance for change.
    The "outrage" regarding the inequality regarding the army and.. "Why would we suddenly release them from service when we have sweated and trained the best of our sons" (I understand the feeling - I was quite a field fighter and still serve as a reserve fighter), but as I say over and over again:
    A gradual, non-publicized, non-aggressive, "under the radar" process - will lead to change. Head to head will fail and it's a shame. All of us (seculars) want a more just society. Do not prevent this from happening because of emotions and emotional behavior that lacks a long-term view. Swallow the bad as little as possible right now, and let time change the situation. If we start today, I'm sure in 10 years we won't understand why we didn't do it much earlier.

  34. to m,

    It amazes me how shallow the public discourse is.
    Why do you refer to a person's body and not to the body of a matter - there is an entire sector here that does not work and educates its children in ignorance.
    What is the relationship between left and right???

    To remind you - religious Zionism that many of its (great!) members belong to the right. And they study Torah, serve in the army, and you will be surprised, they both study at the university and work. They also want the ultra-Orthodox to mobilize!!!
    And I, a believing human being and a man of the right - who from the depth of human logic and the depth of Jewish thought - is not ready to give
    Hand to this inequality in the burden.

    And to you sparrow Israel,

    I assume you know the ultra-orthodox public.
    Please explain to me why the state should pay an adult to learn Torah in a kollel or yeshiva?
    Is this person going to work elsewhere and pay income tax.
    Should I, if I go to study in my private time, in a karate class - just for the sake of it.. Does the state have to pay me for it??

    After all, this is a mitzvah that has a reward for the next world .. so why should the state finance these studies for older people who can work and finance the studies themselves???
    In your opinion, the state should buy you a tallit and a tefillin, and maybe the minister of communications will also sit and knit you a kippah?

    You also claim that money is not as important to the ultra-Orthodox as it is to the secular.. The well-developed snuff industry in this sector will testify to that. Everyone who lives in an ultra-orthodox neighborhood gets knocked on their door at least 10 times a day for "bride income" and "help for the poor" .. and you have no idea where that money goes.

    With my own eyes, when I was in Jerusalem in one of the government offices that I shall not name.
    I saw how ultra-Orthodox businessmen from all ends of the ultra-orthodox spectrum come and go to the office of the ultra-orthodox minister
    As in Solem Yaakov - they come to promote the affairs of their sector and nothing else.

    By the way... you probably don't know that the Rebbe of Magor is a multi-millionaire - the estimates speak of 350 million shekels.
    The Rebbe of Belaz is also sitting well with 180 million shekels..
    And best of all... the descendants of Baba-Sally who are super millionaires:
    Rabbi David Abuchatzira with 750 million shekels
    And Rabbi Pinchas Abuchatzira, who is only 36 years old but owns a huge fortune of one billion and three hundred million shekels, made it bigger!!!

    (The data was published in the economic newspapers, search on Google and you will see).

    This is indeed the case, the ultra-orthodox attach less importance to money, to the money of the seculars.

  35. to my dear father
    I wanted to make you happy a little
    For your information, I did not drive 350 kilometers. But I took my children to a high place (at 8 o'clock in the evening) here in Safed where there is a little light from the city lights in order to see the phenomenon that you will surely enjoy more than me.
    But unfortunately they are small children (7.5 and 9) and went to bed early. I explained to them what was happening and now at this very moment I am trying to wake them up so that they too can see the beautiful spectacle that the sky is showing us
    I also explain to them how it happens naturally and why it happens and what a meteor is and so on
    I also explain to them how the Gemara treats it in Tractate Baruchot so that when they study this tractate they will know what personal information is about.
    And I hope you do enjoy it
    in sparrow friendship

  36. in her
    Dear Eric
    I really enjoyed the video of the violent demonstration of those ultra-Orthodox, you saw how they threatened with their fingers towards the end (really the peak of the violence)
    Seriously, maybe check it out
    For the benefit of all the religious community and those who are not religious. Check out how to prevent the scourge of drugs in elementary schools
    How to reduce violence in all its shades within the country.
    Maybe you will start working on a concept called loving your neighbor as yourself. Maybe we'll really start to find more in common, like for example we're all human and we all have opinions. And mostly they are in the way of thinking that over time we have outlined for ourselves.
    It hurts me to see such great hatred among a people with such a special history. The history that the whole world learns from and envies
    both spiritual and scientific history
    We have to start appreciating the good that everyone has and increase it
    And by this "a little light repels much darkness"

  37. My father is just miserable, as far as you are concerned, a person who disagrees with you is a victim of something, your brain is unable to understand that there are people with a different opinion than yours,
    This is all to be expected from the primitive left who is sure that wisdom and knowledge are his private property and whoever disagrees is poor and a victim, ugh!.

  38. Dror Yisrael is the word that bothers me the most and I will respond to the secularists Still. It's not enough that your public lives at the expense of the seculars instead of working and instead of educating their children about the values ​​of work, you also want our children to become parasites like your children.
    Your repentance is not because it is necessary for the natural state of affairs (as you imply) but because of a gang of several thousand members who raid every neighborhood and city in the Jewish sector and do not let it go until it turns into an ultra-Orthodox ghost town - see for example Harish, Yavniel, many neighborhoods in Jerusalem that once were Chihiloni neighborhoods, and now Atlem are not shy and write about key places such as Ramat Aviv and Ramat Shaviv.
    It is simply an industry and you are its victim.

  39. in her
    As a Jew who belonged to the so-called secular world and was terrified
    The article relatively sums up the ultra-orthodox education nicely and correctly... but is lacking in the comparison between secular and ultra-Orthodox education,
    That is, what is the emphasis in education in both sectors with your permission, I will try to emphasize the virtues of each side

    Education in the ultra-orthodox sector emphasizes B. Mayen
    The one who exists is the creator of the world who established laws (both laws of nature and laws of private human conduct) and whose laws are laws of absolute truth and do not change

    The second is the relationship between human beings based on the great principle and rule of the Torah and loving your neighbor as yourself

    Therefore, the first principle will cause very few ultra-Orthodox to stay away from their education because of financial problems.
    It is true that it will be difficult for them, but education is one or perhaps the main one in the ultra-orthodox world, since everyone is commanded to teach their children Torah and the commandment is above all. For he is the commandment of God

    The main difficulty that stands out in the author's article is that the ultra-Orthodox use the money that the state gives and the assumption is that if there are no budgets they will have to study as the secular world wants. This assumption is based on the manner of education from childhood of the currently non-religious public.

    In secular education the main thing is
    Money... It's true there are a few more details around.
    As strange as it may seem, look at the article and see where the problem is.
    Several times in the non-religious sector, teachers and educators demonstrated for unreasonable salary and silenced the education system for whole weeks and even damaged the sequence of study and knowledge of the students. The reason is money
    The student who didn't go to school realized that this is the main thing in education can wait on the side!!!
    Question: When did we see ultra-Orthodox Torah Talmudists protesting because of full salaries that they did not receive for several months (and believe me, it exists. And I can testify about myself from personal experience.)
    Of course, money has a very strong effect on life and the well-being of life, but in the ultra-Orthodox world it is not the main thing (because God is Zen and provides for all).
    See how much the article tries to force people to learn special professions (i.e. a profession) that will eventually bring financial well-being to the poor and needy ultra-Orthodox. (By the way, there are subjects that can be learned in just a few months. And at an older age)
    But believe me as an ultra-Orthodox I tell you "money will blind the eyes of the wise and pervert the words of the righteous"
    In order to understand this, you have to study from seven in the morning until ten at night in a yeshiva, and those who want to understand more deeply the ultra-Orthodox subject are invited to enter the yeshiva for a few days.

  40. hello to my father,

    I did not come to argue with the author's conclusions, since the analysis of the results is a matter of worldview, and what you see as success another will see as failure, and vice versa.
    My comment was about a distorted presentation of certain facts, and just as one example I will give the results of the installation from three schools, as the writer brings. I am convinced that the learned writer knows that the tests he cites as an example of the rule are really not representative, and this is because, in general, independent education opposes and does not conduct placement exams. The schools that are brought belong to particularly weak populations, and are far from representative.
    A short search in the data will bring to anyone who wants the opposite results published by the Ministry of Education, and this is one of the few that did perform placement tests.
    One example (from a simple Google search from mobile) shows only one example:
    I apologize that the link is Solari's..

  41. For the ultra-Orthodox, is the researcher's main conclusion - that this education may educate in 'values' but does not give its graduates the opportunity to use up their wealth?

  42. As an ultra-Orthodox who lived in Jerusalem until recently, and I have several children in the ultra-Orthodox education system, I can say that some things in the article (I have not read the book) are correct, some are more accurate and some are less accurate, and some have no grip on reality at all. But we can say in a short summary:
    A. The general impression one gets from the article is shallow and does not give a true picture of what is happening.
    B. It seems that the data was distorted to create this impression, distorted in a deliberate way to present pre-marked conclusions.

    Probably, as in many other cases, in this case too it is not worth learning about the reality of our lives from the media. You must go down and see the area for yourself, as far as your hand can reach.

    I think that even people who are not ultra-Orthodox or religious at all, know today that there is no substitute for traditional education of one kind or another, and this is part of the reason for the increase in the number of students in the stream. Those who see the education system up close, know what I'm talking about..

  43. "You are not going to be the majority here in a few years, like any minority in the world you will have to respect your new masters..."

    It is not so clear to me what this strange terminology is: 'gentlemen', 'new'. ?
    You are a very strange 'atheist', Eran..

  44. I will add that the ultra-Orthodox everywhere else in the world support themselves, and here the government decided (!!!) to support them a lot

  45. To Eric, from the example of the jar:
    The factual truth is absolute ("the jar fell"), but the moral truth is not (who killed him?).

    Legal, secular education does suffer from religious coercion, and the reason lies in the governments of Israel for generations that regulated the matter in this way.

    And you are right in your statement: "It is immoral (on the part of the ultra-orthodox) to depend on the economy of the seculars without the possibility of making a living - the parents are intentionally harming their children's ability to make a living in the future."

    And here, too, this is not a problem created only by the ultra-orthodox, but by Israeli governments for generations -
    If the various allowances for the ultra-orthodox public are stopped, they will go out to work and suddenly want education for their children, so that they can manage in the labor market.
    As long as the allowances are not stopped, they have no reason to change (there is a moral reason, but the opportunity to make money for nothing attracts the human soul more).

  46. h first
    Secular education is not open (you cannot determine the content, while you are required by law to send your children), and it is not focused on science (you study religion and not science - for example, evolution is not taught in your "secular" educational system).
    It is immoral (on the part of the ultra-orthodox) to depend on the economy of the seculars without the possibility of making a living - the parents are intentionally harming their children's ability to make a living in the future.

  47. You are not going to be the majority here in a few years, like any minority in the world you will have to respect your new masters...

  48. I didn't get it, apparently it's New Age. And besides, religion aims to rule the world, not to tell the truth. We see this today especially when the level of denial of science in all religions has reached a peak - Turkey and the USA are at the top of the evolution deniers, even though this is Muslim and the second trend is led by evangelicals.

  49. "There is no absolute truth - whoever does not understand this, let him return to philosophy"

    h first

    It is clear that there is an objective absolute truth - reality.. This understanding began with Aristotle, and eventually continued in modern science, the one that allows you to speak on the site of science..

  50. No New Age. Philosophy is science.
    There are things that cannot be proven or disproved. or even decide on them. science.

    Like the jar examples:
    (A jar is dropped by a worker from a high place on a soft surface prepared by him earlier in the street below.
    As it falls, a man sits on the soft surface and receives the jar on his head and dies. Who killed him?)

  51. I must respond briefly-

    As the gatekeeper wrote, the root of evil is the belief in one and only truth.
    I don't believe in a supreme being, but I don't deny its existence.
    Believes in science, and knows that science has removed the lot from only part of reality.

    There is no absolute truth - whoever does not understand this, let him return to philosophy and see examples from here to a new message.
    And if the argument hurts me, it's because of gratuitous hatred.

    A man by his faith shall live. Introducing science into religious classrooms is a secular coercion just as introducing the Bible to seculars is a religious coercion.
    The parents decide on the children's education, not the state.
    If you want your child to learn a lot of science and you are told that there will be a lot of Bible in school, will you send him to school?? How do you expect the opposite to happen?

    The ultra-Orthodox education is closed because that's what the ultra-Orthodox want.
    Secular education is open and focused on science because that's what the secularists want.
    Changing this situation, even if you are not satisfied with it, is:
    1. Immoral (a concept from the orthodox and secular world!)
    2. Impossible (parents will not send their children)
    3. Starting a fratricidal war on religious and cultural issues, a real repeat of 68 AD (if anything, why aren't the Jewish wars part of history lessons??)

    In short, like in Southpark, you actually tell each other
    "Our answer to the Great Question is the only logical one."
    When there is not always one right answer, certainly not moral.

    Peace and fun.

  52. Israel Shapira, it might interest you that "Talmud Torah against all" is equivalent in gematria to 1264, which is also equal to "Secretary of State Clinton", or "Miami is nice and quite pleasant and they don't throw stones there"... I wonder what that means?!

  53. I just skimmed through and saw right away that there was distorted information here. The photographed agenda is of a small yeshiva perhaps, certainly not of a high school yeshiva. The high school yeshivahs do not belong to the ultra-Orthodox sector at all, and in the afternoons they study school studies, including science.

  54. The root of evil is the belief in one and only truth
    The more evil and wicked acts
    are done out of religious conviction

  55. Scout, it is possible to adopt some things from ultra-orthodox education - certainly the respect for the teacher and the teaching profession - but not the intensity that wears out the weak and of course not the content.

  56. I didn't understand the meaning of attacking Roy. His article includes a snapshot of ultra-orthodox education. From this situation it is possible to learn many things about the mindset of the ultra-Orthodox population, their priorities and how they make decisions and manage their lives.
    I will admit and say that most of the data recorded in his article were not new to me.

    Despite the abysmal differences in views, I think secular education has a lot to learn from ultra-orthodox education at the basic level of boundaries, order, ideology of education.

    I think that one of the tragedies of secular society is that it has not been able to root and assimilate the right alternatives in education and secular society: the love of education, the love of books, learning, curiosity, research and more, all of these alongside social principles that do not contradict all of these: mutual guarantee, helping others, listening, etc. '.
    An example of good secular education exists in the kibbutz society, although it too is beginning to lose itself for various reasons.

    In the secular society, ideology has given way to individualism and many articles can be written about this.

  57. to Eran,

    I am also secular and liberal but.... Replace the word Haredim with Scientologists or any other religious sect and maybe you will understand the seriousness of the situation. The major religions are simply older, shallower religions. If a good friend of yours was drawn into some religious cult, you would be especially worried about the fact that he is being brainwashed. In the religious society there is a complete prohibition on receiving knowledge of various kinds which can endanger the brainwashing. These are Gitas of thought. This is also, for example, the main reason for the fear of military service where they may be exposed to 'dangerous' ideas. So you can answer: 'Their problem!' This answer could be acceptable but it is false because it is our problem. From a budgetary point of view, I, as a secular, finance religious activities (Ministry of Religion), for example the activities of rabbis, mohels, kosher supervisors, etc. Would you also finance Scientology priests? From the point of view of a national agenda, their influence is decisive on decision-making and the national agenda. And finally, the economic balance tends towards the negative, and the ultra-Orthodox who follow this path are condemned to ignorance which will not allow them to exist in dignity without allowances from the state. The ultra-orthodox education receives investments that do not pay for themselves. The debate is not neutral but it is a real debate about the people and character of the country where you live.

  58. Instead of slandering the writer by the commenters here, I would be happy to hear from someone from the ultra-Orthodox public what he thinks about the findings of the article, and why he thinks ultra-orthodox education is better than secular education, and how he justifies the fact that the majority of the ultra-Orthodox public, as a result of the education he received, cannot make a living from his work . and live at the expense of society.

    As a woman, I would like to hear why the ultra-orthodox education encourages the ultra-orthodox family to rely on the woman alone to provide for the family, who, in addition to working outside, is required to have unlimited children. While the husband lives a comfortable life of studying only? And not even required to engage in Torah renewals.

    As a secularist, it seems to me that the woman is the slave of the family more than any slave in the world, under the message of "a soldier's wife who will find".

    I expect to receive a more extended and reasoned answer than to say that the main thing is for everyone to preserve the religion and submit to the discipline of the ruler - the rabbi, the religious society and the religious party.

  59. Eran,
    Both of these theories are rooted in empirical reality, therefore your claim that "there is a logic to our physical world, but it is not the only logic" is not strengthened by the friction that exists between the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics. Please explain what other logic exists and whether this logic is also accompanied by evidence.

    The science site was right, which brought to our attention the sad state of the education system in Israel and this is exactly what such a site should do. And saying even more, my father does not hide this agenda and does not deny it and it is a sacred mission (yes, I said the word sacred). As in every field of life and every article you read, examine whether there was a game here with the data he presented, whether the article itself is false, whether the existence of this article casts doubt on the correctness of other articles published here, and of course, you reserve the right not to click on the link.

    The sad state of the education system is the issue that needs to be talked about and any other debate is marginal.

  60. Dear Eran,

    It's always funny and infuriates me at the same time that we seculars always have to respect the ultra-religious.
    Whereas our way of life receives constant contempt... if not for repeated attempts to bring us back to repentance.
    For some reason, respect is always one-sided.

    It is possible and necessary to criticize their way of life - especially when it is so relevant to our life in this country.
    A country where there is no public transportation on Shabbat, where divorce is only done through the rabbinate and many more examples.
    But mainly the creation of a large sector of people who benefit from the tax pie, but contribute nothing to it.
    And with the help of their political power - the tongue of the scales - they decide to whom and how to divide the cake.
    To remind you, the heads of the finance committee were: Litzman, Ravitz, Shapira, Feldman and the current Moshe Gafni.
    guess what? Everyone is ultra-Orthodox.

    I have a big problem with people who consciously educate their children in ignorance, hatred and a life of poverty.
    In the blessing of the food, we bless every day "that we will not have to give gifts of flesh and blood".
    And I have a big problem with that, with healthy people who deliberately rely on the state's table - on the table of all of us.

    Talking about the status quo - a bad joke.. and more at our expense!
    Only in recent years have we heard about Mehdrin lines, about the separation of sidewalks, about the exclusion of women, about missionaries (yes, yes.. Chabad are missionaries and all converts).. the increase in allowances.. discrimination in housing in favor of ultra-Orthodox families.. continue???
    In the last 30 years there has been no status quo here... and maybe there never was...

    So you can bury your head in the sand and say "I despise the denigration of the way of life of any public, no matter how stupid their beliefs are"

    But his beliefs determine for you (!) whether you can take a bus to the sea on Shabbat or whether the state's money will go to more worthy places.

    The discussion here does not concern a person's body, but the conduct of a sector.
    Likewise, as individuals, most of the ultra-Orthodox I know are great people, but as a sector-as a group, their behavior has been disastrous.

    And by the way, I'm not an atheist at all.
    I believe in God and I believe in Judaism, if I were more into it I might even have kept the Sabbath.
    All of the written and oral Torah is commanded to work, already in the book of Genesis it is said "six days you shall work and do all your work". but inventing a new faith.
    All the great men of Israel of all times up to the last period engaged in some kind of craft in addition to being rabbis.

    So you still think it's none of your business?

  61. Regarding your previous response, to remind you there is a disagreement between relativity and quantum mechanics.
    Probably both are wrong, but each of their pursuits serves the science community in the closest way we know.
    I would recommend you read more about non-Euclidean geometries.

  62. Trust me, it's just a formality.
    Just remember that in any conflict, getting personal means losing the listeners.

  63. Eran, with logic like yours, I don't think you will be approved for the scholarship. 😉

  64. Eran
    According to "your" logic, then your words contradict your words.
    Hence, you are lying.

    "There is a logic to our physical world, but it is not the only logic." - I know the logic of our physical world.
    Sorry, but I don't know the other logic you seem to know. (I don't know you, so it could be that you come from another world. If so, my apologies in advance).

    "Science recognizes this, that there can be several models that in a given situation describe it to a good degree, even if they contradict each other."
    - Sorry, I admit I didn't understand. Who/what do the models describe well?
    Where does "science recognize this"? And what "science"? What models are we talking about?

  65. The very fact that you are obliged to define an axiom to refer to any real field, shows that there is no universal logic.
    There is a logic to our physical world, but it is not the only logic.
    Science recognizes this, that there can be several models that in a given situation describe it to a good extent, even if they contradict each other.

  66. Eran, you write:
    "I think one of the beautiful things in science is its openness, the ability to respect other opinions even if they contradict your logic."

    So I have news for you. There is no such thing as my/your logic.
    There is logic and there is irrationality.
    If someone's words contradict logic, then their words are illogical.
    You're asking people to respect opinions even if they don't make sense whether they come from consensus or premeditated intent.
    Things that don't make sense are false things.
    It's like asking to respect a person who lies.
    And worse, a person who lies on purpose.

  67. To your question, with the ratification of the scholarship, I intend to leave the borders of the country, but my life is not the point here.
    The moral question arises as to whether a website dealing with science, whose readers come to it only for the sake of science (at least I do) has the right to criticize publics.
    I think one of the beautiful things about science is its openness, the ability to respect other opinions even if they contradict your logic.

  68. Father, you are making too big a story out of all these sciences. Every educated person knows very well that on the day of command what matters is not technology but faith in God, without which all computers, tanks and planes are just a pile of inanimate scrap metal.

    Except that in Gematria "Talmud Torah against everyone" equals "we are heroes and with God's help we will defeat the Iranians".

    Remainder 860.

  69. Explain to me how, as an atheist, it doesn't bother you that a third of Israel's children are ignorant of science and in general anything that can help them move forward in life (English, mathematics)?
    Why does criticism of the ultra-Orthodox bother you, when your ultra-Orthodox friends see our way of life as a criminal offense and employ people full-time whose goal is to make me and you as ignorant as they are? This is worse than criticism. This is a war where one side fights and the other gives up because of supposedly liberal views.

    It seems to me that we need to work on informing the seculars what is going to happen here in 10-20 years when Israel will become a Halacha state also formally and not just practically as the situation is now. There is no word in the language to describe the catastrophe that is about to be unleashed upon us, and any reasoned and polite criticism seems to you to be an attack. odd.
    And besides, since the XNUMXs with the industry of repentance until today when whole neighborhoods and cities were horrified that the status quo had been violated, why are you concerned about his safety now that he is already biased in favor of the Halacha state?

    And besides, what exactly is defamation in Roy's words? Is it the fact that no one thought that an entire public would cause their children to be deliberately ignorant?
    And in addition to everything, it is an academic book. Or maybe in the era of political correctness the academy is not allowed to research areas that are in our soul because they hurt someone. If so, then let's also abolish the biology departments that study evolution, because it also hurts the ultra-Orthodox.

    I also apologized for the fact that two articles appeared day after day, Roy was not coordinating with me. He wrote when he finished reading the book.

  70. I'm sorry,
    But this time it's crossing a red line.
    As a complete atheist, yet a liberal, I despise the denigration of any public's way of life, no matter how stupid their beliefs.
    The scientist begins to lose its status as a respected science site and becomes a bastion of slander,
    There is nothing good in the fact that the scientist uses methods that were used in the aforementioned sector, in order to prove the superiority of the scientific approach over the religious one, on the contrary. I still embraced the etrog, in this I see a serious violation of the status quo.
    It's really a shame about the site, I always thought it was superior to discussions with a political-political tone.

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